Do you believe in destiny? [Archive] - CheekyCherry Free Penis Enlargement Forums

Shane_Bos

20th July 2005, 08:58 PM

Theres a poll cos im curious, but feel free to discuss, here's my view...

Free choice: The power to chose between alternatives, unrestrained by causality.

Destiny: A pre-determined course of events beyond a persons control.

I think of it this way, if there is a course of pre-determined events beyond a persons a control then that person doesnt have the power to chose between alternitives and therfore, arise with different consequences. In other words, if there is such thing as destiny, there is no free choice.

In religion, free will causes a problem as, if people have the freedom of choice then God cannot possess omniscience (infinite knowledge). This is because, if we dont know what we're going to do next, how can anyone else? By saying God possesses the characteristic of omniscience, you are saying God knows the future and therefore, the choices we are going to make, and therefore, our destiny. However, if this is true then how can God blame a human for taking the forbidden fruit or whatever it was?

In practice, if each of us has a destiny, and we dont have free will, can we ever be held accountable for our actions? If it was your destiny to kill someone then you have no choice on the matter right? You WILL kill that person. This then means that from birth and the beggining of time this was going to happen so if it wasnt your choice, can you be sent to prison for this act?

But now, we get into a paradox. You could say that it was the persons destiny to be in prison and killing was just a means to an end.

So now, i come to my conclusion... destiny (if it exists, which i dont think it does) is something we can only know once we have survived it. Destiny is in the past, and thus, only really matters if it bothers the individual deep down if they have free choice or not, but it really makes no difference if it exists. Nice to think about this sort of stuff though.

Valk

20th July 2005, 09:13 PM

Hmmm...interesting.

I see life a bit like a chess-game. You can make a lot of different moves, but they're not unlimited.
You can make alot of different choises but even though there are alot, you're still limited. Dont know what does limiting factors could be though...maybe your genes, place/time of birth.

Shane_Bos

20th July 2005, 09:18 PM

I know what you mean, there are alot of factors, such as the ones you mentioned. Also in that category are things such as that you cant demand the sun to go down when you want. I know its a bit extreme but it does demonstrate that there isnt unlimited free choice.

Nice analogy on the chess btw :wink:

'TheBugKahuna'

20th July 2005, 10:35 PM

There is a difference between knowing what is going to happen and influencing what is going to happen. If "God" knew I was going to kill someone, it does not mean that he caused me to do so. Therefore, he did not influence my "destiny."

wern

21st July 2005, 04:50 AM

So this is where the drugs topic has spilled over to.

Note: this started off as a very small post but I added to it. It was fun, so thanks for the opportunity Shane!

Lets say that
1. Destiny = lack of control over your actions - a slave to preordained events and causality - meaning you are a slave in the past, and the future.
2. Free will = the opposite - you are in control in the present. Your future is affected by this present control. In the extreme it also means the past has no control over you, otherwise it would be the past that controls your current actions. This state of being is supposedly possible for enlightened monks.

Argument: Free will is an illusion.
You will almost always be a slave to rules. Rules of statute (ie criminal law), then the rules of physics, mathematics, psychology. If you are drunk you are arguably a slave to rules of biochemstry, as your mind and nervous system have new limits imposed on them.
When you walk, you are a slave to gravity and you are a slave to biophysics as our bodies are composed, through genetics, of organs.
You are affected by the rules of the concept that our minds recognise as "the past". Your past dictates who you are. You, Shane, think you are a male based on your past experiences of learning what a male is and experiencing events that suggested to you that you fit into the concept known as "being a male".

Counter argument- we are free in certain situations.
If you sit at home, eating an apple the rule of criminal law doesn't have control over it. Also you may violate criminal law by killing someone. The rule of physics has no control in your dreams.

Counter Counter argument -
Yet a further counter argument is that chosing in itself is a form of slavery, which implies lack of control in the present which implies a form of destiny. Example: As you breath you are a slave to the body's requirement for Oxygen. If you chose not to breath it is because you have the desire not to breath (ie because you want to die), in which case you are a slave of that desire.

Choice comes from desire. If you chose to sacrifice yourself for another, the choice comes from a desire. To consciously violate that desire would come from another desire. Which means that all conscious acts are the result of you being controlled.

Action X : sarifice yourself, Shane, for your girlfriend:
If you presently chose to sacrifice yourself for your girlfriend, there is a lack of free will, because while it may seem that you are free to sacrifice your life, in actual fact the conscious decision is based in an infintismal amount of past experiences that have
A. determined to yourself that you are an entity
B. determined to yourself that your girlfriend is an entity
C. created within you a psyche that allows you to consider the act of self-sacrifice as a possibility
D. created a desire to perform an action
Without the past creating the conditions A,B C and D, you can't concsiously perform action X

Conclusion:
There's two conclusions, if you follow the abovestated views:

1. Freedom is an illusion, because you are always a slave
2. There is only one destiny, and it is a certainty - you are destined to never be free.

BIGOKE

21st July 2005, 05:40 AM

I was destined to CC because of the size of my dick. My dick was small long before I knew of PE so in my quest for size I ended up here. So what do you think? :? Now I'm destined for a bigger dick. Is that predicting the future?? I reckon your destiny is determined by your choices made. Also by the encounters you have with others. How many talented people were discovered by other people and then set on the path to fame and fortune? If they did not have those "lucky" encounters, then would they have the same destiny? I think not. Also they had the choice to pursue that destiny.

Bobo

21st July 2005, 03:56 PM

I believe life is a free ride where all our choices have a big effect on the direction to where we're moving. I don't believe in God or anything "more spectacular" than the reality we can see and hear. Our "destiny" is limited with many factors like our location, country, culture, gender, laws, physical and mental characteristics, upbringing (the influence of our parents, friends, teachers...) etc etc. But those aren't any divine blueprints to our life, they're all man made. In some countries there are no great possibilities to advance in life, especially for women (sadly)... but in the rich western world we have all the possibilities, and the biggest limitation is our ability to learn and use our brain, and our personality. All of us are capable of doing horrible things like terrorism, murders etc... and what's keeping us from doing those things is our brain and our understanding of what's right or wrong. Quite scary to think that way: anyone of us could be a serial killer or anything if we choose to act that way, but thankfully a healthy brain can block madness like that from our selection of actions.

One thing, one crime most of us are guilty of is: not doing something. We often think that things like helping are not mandatory, we think not doing such things when we could do them is no crime... we think indifference doesn't matter. "Not my problem" is a common way to think, and in reality people could for example die because we refuce to help, and that's no crime? We can steer our life in many different directions, but we must remember while doing it that we have a big influence in not only our own lives, but on the lives of all the people we meet.

Valk

21st July 2005, 05:14 PM

corrected some typos? :mrgreen

Bobo

21st July 2005, 05:43 PM

Yes, for some reason I typed "lifes" twice -> corrected them to lives. Are You happier knowing that now? :lol:

Valk

21st July 2005, 06:34 PM

Valk's very happy now :D

wern

21st July 2005, 08:00 PM

you guys would make a great couple

Valk

21st July 2005, 08:19 PM

I never doubted that.

zwmusic

21st July 2005, 08:37 PM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Bobo

21st July 2005, 09:15 PM

:shock:

ArTee63

21st July 2005, 11:07 PM

I understand the theory behind destiny. I don't really agree with it though. I think your actions have an effect on things that may or may not happen later. I'm with Bobo on this one. I like to believe that I am the one in control. Not some predestined force acting on me. Is that a pre-determined course for me? Who knows?

I'm happy. That's all I need to worry about. :P

BIGOKE

22nd July 2005, 06:02 AM

I think that destiny as a word is designed to embody some sort of future state of being. But in fact destiny is only something that can be determined after the fact.

Bobo

22nd July 2005, 02:53 PM

The word "destiny" is a man-made word to explain (=lie) to oneself that his/her failure in life wasn't his/her own fault because "destiny" had it all planned before the looser was born. So, doesn't matter how one lives... and if he/she happens to be religious too, he/she can commit all the crimes he/she wants because the "God" will forgive all his/her sins as a result of his/her faith. Isn't life an easy ride, nothing to worry about?! :lol: Just go with the flow...

Shane_Bos

22nd July 2005, 09:37 PM

I agree Bobo, 'destiny' will never be proved or disproved as its always discovered after it happens, for example if i kill someone, then i could say it was my destiny but i cannot say what my destiny will be until the act has happened, i cannot know it is my destiny to kill someone until i do, as it may never happen. For this reason, destiny seems to be a scapegoat. Something to blame when things go wrong. If you have free choice, you can be held responsible for your actions.

As for Werns comments, i liked them :D But i dont think they really aim at proving or disproving as i think even though my decision to save my bird will be based on previous events in my life, i can argue that i still have the choice of what to do, and someone could argue that i dont have the choice, its my destiny. And then we're back to square one. What that example seems to be explaining is causality, but we will never know if it is our decisions that map it (for example if my decision of whether to save my girlfriend or not causes the next event) or if the same destiny will be fulfilled (my choice will evetually lead to my destiny being fulfilled). Here we come back to my first comment where i you will never know your destiny, if you have one, until it is in the past.

wern

23rd July 2005, 06:33 AM

Shane, my comment was much deeper than "if you knew it would happen, then would you?" because thats a conundrum and a brain twister. It is a trick question that will have you spend countless hours trying to wrap your mind around it to no avail. That's the point of it

What I am saying is that your concept of destiny is an illusion, and I am digging deeper into fundamentals to show you why. Basically causality = destiny. Even time itself has no starting point (or atleast scientists haven't found it yet, though their only theory so far is the big bang theory, which still isn't proven).

When I was your age I had the exact same question though.

Bobo

23rd July 2005, 09:13 AM

The "big bang" isn't only a theory, it has been calculated from the movement, speed and direction of galaxies, that all seem to be moving away from the same spot. The further away from it they are, the faster they're moving (of course). But that doesn't mean "time" would start from the bang because there must have been something before the bang too, the matter that exploded must have been there before the bang of course.

ownd

23rd July 2005, 05:46 PM

Personally bobo i dont see how someone cannot be religious in at least a little bit in the aspect of beleiveing that there is a higher power, everything makes more sense if you beleive in a higher power, when on the other side there are huge mystories of creation like what started the big bang and then what started that and so on and so on and so on. I presume you dont beleive in an afterlife either right?

Bobo

23rd July 2005, 06:06 PM

No, I don't believe in an afterlife. I'm not saying there wouldn't be a possibility for one because I can't know it like nobody else can't know it either, religious or not. After studying a lot of science since I was a little kid, the reality and space makes a lot more sense to me than some sort of God would, I mean what is more absurd than explaining things with something that makes even less sense. I do respect religions, but in my opinion they're just an easy way out of things, no need to explain anything or find any facts because everything is "Gods work" and we "can't" understand it. I refuce to fall into that sort of blindness. I don't say that to offend religious people, it's just the way I think.

Shane_Bos

24th July 2005, 12:07 PM

I agree with Bobo, I feel that religion is there to fill the gaps in what science cannot explain yet. I remember some christians held a conference in London saying they could prove the existence of God because of a fish's eye. I dont know what they said but basically science couldnt explain how the fish could see as once the eye was disected, its was like nothing seen before. A while after this, a scientist got some of these eyes and worked it out and their whole argument fell. But its like, to prove the existence of God, they have to look for something so obscure as how a certain fish can see. People have claimed these sort of things prove that God exists, such as the beggining of earth with Adam and Eve, but now in general, everyone excepts the theory of evolution, and now, religous people will search for more 'unexplainable' things to prove God exists.

Like Bobo, im not saying there isnt a God, just that i persoanally dont think there is. Im not trying to get into a debate to destoy peoples beliefs here :D

Bobo

24th July 2005, 04:06 PM

But, the absurd logic of religions is sometimes so annoying it hurts the brain! :lol:

wern

24th July 2005, 09:54 PM

The big bang theory hypothesises that the universe in all its dimensions started with a single atom. This includes time. There was nothing before the start of the universe. No time, no space.

http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

But the theory isn't proven yet. The site only says that what is proven is that the universe started to exist at one point - it hasn't "always been".

Bobo

25th July 2005, 06:50 PM

Of course it's a "theory" because nothing can prove 100% something that happened that long ago. The fact that all the galaxies are moving away from a certain area, and the ones further away move fast while the ones closer to the area moves slower, is enough to me. It makes alot more sense than Adam and Eve at least! :lol:

ownd

25th July 2005, 10:51 PM

well what ever makes more sense to you is the most important thing. To me i beleive 100 percent in god and jesus and am religious, however i highly resent the catholic church and everything they stand for, they are a powerfull rich institution that stands to control eertying. Its sick, relegion was not meant to be about control and money and possesions but the catholic church certainly has done that. That is why i consider myself a true christian not a catholic.

wern

26th July 2005, 04:31 AM

It makes alot more sense than Adam and Eve at least! :lol:

Definately :lol:

'TheBugKahuna'

26th July 2005, 06:08 AM

Ownd, what causes you to believe in your beliefs 100 percent?

BIGOKE

26th July 2005, 07:23 AM

To me i beleive 100 percent in god and jesus and am religious, That is why i consider myself a true christian not a catholic.
Yeah I'm a believer too, but sometimes different doctrines are confusing and some are deliberately misleading. Also sometimes there are no spritual explanations for "secular" things. Like dinosaurs for example. Not mentioned in the Bible but definitely were on the earth before man existed. :?

Bobo

26th July 2005, 08:33 AM

Also sometimes there are no spritual explanations for "secular" things. Like dinosaurs for example. Not mentioned in the Bible but definitely were on the earth before man existed. :?
That's because people didn't know about them back then when the bible was written. If someone would have asked Jesus about the subject, he would have rolled his eyes like this: :roll: It makes one wonder... the age of earth and life on it... why has this planet been full of big and small creatures for hundreds of millions of years, and then suddenly "the chosen one" arrives: us, the amazing human beings, the cruelest beast ever walked on the face of earth. We've been on this planet only for a breaf moment compared to the living history of earth... makes me wonder if the religions really have been invented by man? I mean... why did God go through all that effort, creating dinosaurs and all... failed attempts to create the "chosen one" race he can plant his jar of souls in?

Bobo

26th July 2005, 08:45 AM

To me i beleive 100 percent in god and jesus and am religious
I respect that, and am not trying to talk You out of Your faith because I know I can't, just as religious people have failed in their ten thousand attempts trying to convert me. I also hope You say that because You truly believe, and not because of fear of God.

however i highly resent the catholic church and everything they stand for, they are a powerfull rich institution that stands to control eertying. Its sick, relegion was not meant to be about control and money and possesions but the catholic church certainly has done that. That is why i consider myself a true christian not a catholic.
Religions weren't meant to be about control and money? The funny thing is: that's all they have ever been. So, You think Christianity is the good way? Hmm... I seem to remember some facts about Christian missionaries going into foreign lands. They did not only destroy the indigenous beliefs, but Christians and religious groups are responsible for the greatest massacres of history as they forcefully fed their beliefs to people.

Bobo

26th July 2005, 09:45 AM

I'm sorry if I offend someone with my comments because I know religions play a big part in some of Your lives. Personally I can remember the feeling of believing when I was a kid, it was very comforting believing in something greater, and especially believing in afterlife, removed my fear of death. Then, later in my life, the reality was slapped hard on my face and I began to doubt everything, including myself. I spent years and years looking for my lost faith, but more and more answers were found against it than for it. It simply doesn't make any sense anymore. It was easy to believe in it when I was a kid, when the world outside our backyard was a mystery to me too, but as many other things in life turned out to be much worse than they seemed before, religion also lost its glory, all of it. Today, I believe quite strongly the way I do (99%), and I have the same right to talk about it as religious people have the right to talk about their God (or Gods, depends on where You're born). I don't mean to convert anyone, and definately I don't mean to offend... but it is simply impossible to deny something some people base their whole lives on without offending them. Sorry for that.

wern

26th July 2005, 10:19 AM

We've been on this planet only for a breaf moment compared to the living history of earth... makes me wonder if the religions really have been invented by man? I mean... why did God go through all that effort, creating dinosaurs and all... failed attempts to create the "chosen one" race he can plant his jar of souls in?

NICE!!

The reason people are religious is not just because they are brought up that way, or brainwashed, tricked, ignorant etc. . It is partly because by having faith you are more in touch with yourself, with the connection between mind and body. By praying you spend quiet time by yourself with yourself, listening to your Self. So it's not just about a po[pulation that gets tricked into giving without receiving. On the contrary, the purpose of religion/faith is to receive the best gift of all - bliss.

Bobo, I understand why you don't have faith in God but are you at all religious or spiritual? ie buddhist? I think it is very important for wellbeing to have some sort of faith, not necessarily in God or a higher power. Faith, or active inquisitiveness, in your soul or mind-body connection - your Self, is very important for living a life filled with true Joy and contentment.

Dong_Johnson

26th July 2005, 11:00 AM

"God didn't create man, man created God"

Bobo

26th July 2005, 12:58 PM

Bobo, I understand why you don't have faith in God but are you at all religious or spiritual? ie buddhist? I think it is very important for wellbeing to have some sort of faith, not necessarily in God or a higher power.
I believe in getting to know myself on a deeper level, and to improve myself both physically and mentally. I guess Buddhism is very near to my philosophy. I don't need to fear a God to be able to live a good life. I don't need to fear for hell or punishment from God to do the right thing. People are too much looking for answers outside their body, when they really should look inside. The mind is a powerful tool, and it isn't there only to store info... it can be used to answer some questions without asking them too. Things like telekinesis are way overboard, while the mind is actually more amazing than that. Learn to use it so You can look at things from many different angles rather than just waiting for "yes/no" answers because nothing is that way two dimensional. A God is a way too complex solution, because the same way of living can be found in everyones mind. Not believing in an afterlife doesn't scare me at all, it only makes sure I try to live my only life as good as possible.

Valk

26th July 2005, 01:03 PM

The reason people are religious is not just because they are brought up that way, or brainwashed, tricked, ignorant etc. . It is partly because by having faith you are more in touch with yourself, with the connection between mind and body. By praying you spend quiet time by yourself with yourself, listening to your Self. So it's not just about a po[pulation that gets tricked into giving without receiving. On the contrary, the purpose of religion/faith is to receive the best gift of all - bliss.

That should be the case, but I see alot of hypocrisy in especially Cristianity.
People that claim to be Christian, but are just the same as non-religious people. 10 minutes of praying at night doesnt change that.

Bobo

26th July 2005, 01:05 PM

"God didn't create man, man created God"
That seems to be the case, judging by the amazing amount of different religions around the planet since the beginning of times. People want to believe in something greater, because the idea of us simply floating in space randomly is quite scary, unless You spend years to getting used to the idea like I have.. "There must be a strong and comforting father somewhere that takes me to his safe lap when I die... it simply can't be the end, can it?" ... "No it isn't. There is a God and a paradise waiting for You, with all the loved ones You lost when You lived warmly greeting You. A never ending happiness and joy awaits You, a neverending life in paradise"...... who wouldn't want to believe that? Hell... I hope I'm wrong and there really is a God! Somehow, on top of all the facts that say otherwise, wouldn't it be a bit too good to be true? Sounds more like a fantasy, wishful thinking... rather than a fact.

Shane_Bos

26th July 2005, 06:03 PM

Bobo, you've saved me aot of typing. I feel the same as you. From the opinions on a 'God' existing being crap to the not wanting to offend anyone.

Just one thing to add though...

Apart from all thats been said, i think religion was created by filling in the holes and gaps that science cannot explain. When religions were created, or 'discovered', it was considered ludicrous to not believe in them, but, as time has passed and science has explained more and more, people have begun questioning. Science is the reason for the rapid diminishing amount of believers, especially in the UK. And more so in the western countries over others.

Also, Wern, I think 99% of people are religous because of where they were born, who brought them up etc. How can a person decide to become religous and believe in a God spontaneously just to become more 'in touch with themselves'. Im sure that if my parents were religous, i would be too. Similarly, if i was born in an islamic country, im sure i would have become a Muslim. I also dont think you have to be religous or spiritual to be 'truly joyous and content'. I dont think anyone can be truly joyous and content. Mankind is selfish, we will always want more. A bit of spirituality might bring you down to earth and cause you to want less, therefore making you more content, but i dont think a content person has to be spiritual. Just because X causes Y doesnt mean that Y WILL be caused by X.

Wow, just think how long this post wouldve been if Bobo wasnt here :cheeky:

Dong_Johnson

26th July 2005, 06:20 PM

True bobo the people who came up with the various religions mustn't have been able to accept the idea that this life is probably their only one, possibly because they had led such a bad life already.
And few, if any, things have cost as much life and caused as much destruction to humanity as religion. All in the name of worshipping God. Why would people want their god associated with violence and oppression when they supposedly respect/praise him so?
Were they just using religion as an excuse for conquest and brainwashing?

Bobo

26th July 2005, 06:31 PM

Dong_Johnson

26th July 2005, 07:18 PM

Stupid people need easy answers :)

wern

26th July 2005, 07:21 PM

That should be the case, but I see alot of hypocrisy in especially Cristianity.
People that claim to be Christian, but are just the same as non-religious people. 10 minutes of praying at night doesnt change that.

There's hypocrisy in every religion. The formal excuses for all religious hypocricy is on interpretation of scriptures, as it is the only excuse that will be accepted by the masses, otherwise you are branded a deviant and are excommunicated.

Islam - massive wrongful interpretations of the Koran leading to radicalism.
Christianity - well history answers that don't it, plus theres billions of christians and many different schools of christianity. So hypocricy is highly likely. Also, because western society is largely formally christian people pay the religion lipservice while not actually having real faith.
Buddhism - many don't meditate, they are just boirn into it
Hindu - same as buddhism. Actually the religion is so complex that only priests have sufficient understanding to be able to perform rituals properly - and there are social castes thanks to this religion.
Judaism - there are radicals here as well whose interpretations of the Torah are significantly different to mainstream interpretaions. They are extremely right-wing.
That's all I know of the 'main' religions Valk, but I think you get my point.

wern

26th July 2005, 07:23 PM

People are afraid to die, and religions are the key to having life after death, key to hope. That is in my opinion the biggest reason why so many people do believe in God. Filling the gaps of science came later, after the religions already were here. Whatever doesn't make sense: God works mysterious ways. An easy answer.

BOBO YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!!!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
:lol: just kidding :mrgreen

But I do disagree. You seem to be saying people are religious mostly because of fear. People aren't that stupid. Maybe that would be true in the past, but we live in a skeptical time. People are asking "what will releigion do for me" unless they are raised as being religious.

Bobo

26th July 2005, 08:49 PM

Stupid people need easy answers :)
No, not stupid. Only, they won't gain any knowledge either if they're not looking for it.

Bobo

26th July 2005, 08:58 PM

But I do disagree. You seem to be saying people are religious mostly because of fear. People aren't that stupid. Maybe that would be true in the past, but we live in a skeptical time. People are asking "what will releigion do for me" unless they are raised as being religious.
Not stupid, I didn't mean it that way. What I meant was, the general motivation for the subconscious need to believe in something greater is the very common fear: the fear of death. People want to believe death isn't the end. Most of us are afraid of death, and believing in a God and afterlife is a comforting thing in which I'd love to believe in too. I truly think this is the most common driving force into religions. Of course most of us are forcefully fed the religion to which ever religious area we're born, but what really pushes many into really believing and not only pretending to believe (as many do) is the very comforting feeling of believing in life after death. How is that stupid? I'd call it human.

wern

26th July 2005, 09:36 PM

Here's what I believe happens when you die: your consciousness ceases to exist.

May sound simple and easy, but actually the conscious mind can't fathom non existence since it is an experience outside of our senses so therefore we can't comprehend it using a mind that can only experience data through our senses. Man that sounded wierd.

We still exist, as our bodies decompose and become other things. The energy will alter and recycle. But as we exist in our conscious mind, and as consciousness is a product of the brain, and as the brain dies with the body, we consciousness is forever gone. Or is it? Science, so far doesn't show that consciousness can exist. Perhaps we could have life after death if the mind could be downloaded to another body, or if the brain could become robotic. This can be done theoretically as scientists have replaced some neurons in the brain with artificial neurons and there was no side effects - the neurons were accepted. Howver, replacing a couple of neurons is a MASSIVE leap from replacing the billions of neurons that make up the brain.

So in the future it may be able to have life after our body dies. But only because our conscious mind will continue to exist.

wern

26th July 2005, 10:03 PM

believing in a God and afterlife is a comforting thing in which I'd love to believe in too.

SO THAT'S IT - YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

:mrgreen

Bobo

26th July 2005, 10:13 PM

In my humble opinion, our consciousness, or "soul" is only the combination of all our senses. It seems not very logical that a consciousness or "soul" would be trapped in the body of an lifeform the evolution has slowly created. Is it born in that creature as it lives, or is it floating freely in "afterlife" and for some reason again trapped to this lifeform? No, I don't think so. All our senses combined together in the amazing part of our body: the brain, are when put together something so amazing we believe it's something that isn't really a part of our body: a "soul". It simply seems so unlikely that I'm really having difficulties in believing that. Why? Well, for example people get sick, mentally too... and for some reason the "soul" seems to get sick too because clearly the personality changes... so the brain does seem to control the soul too, which shouldn't be the case if the brain and the soul would be separate things. Seems a bit weird to me.

Bobo

26th July 2005, 10:16 PM

SO THAT'S IT - YOU ARE JUST JEALOUS!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: No, not really... in fact, because of the way I believe in things, I'm glad that I'm not wasting my life preparing for something after death, I rather live now. I hope I'm wrong, it would be nice to continue this journey when this body stops functioning. But, why wait, because we're alive now and that's a fact nobody can debate against!

Valk

26th July 2005, 10:17 PM

Perhaps we could have life after death if the mind could be downloaded to another body, or if the brain could become robotic.

I dont see why living forever seems so attractive for people. How would the thought of working forever and ever and ever and ever would make you feel?
Not to mention the ridiculous amount of overpopulation it creates, unless we make some heavy duty birth control plans.

Bobo

26th July 2005, 10:25 PM

...unless we make some heavy duty birth control plans.
That may very well be reality within the next 50 years or so. Right now many people are making kids out of a mistake, and nobody takes care of them... they simply end up wandering around, looking for food. Street kids. Reality. In my opinion, not just anybody should be allowed to have kids. Just as with adoption, making kids should be carefully planned too. If the parents don't have the brains for that, then someone else must do the thinking for them. I'm not saying only rich people should be able to have kids, money isn't the main factor here... what I'm sayin is, no crack-whore fucks under the bridges should lead to pregnancy. Cut the tubes when we are born, and re-connect them when we get the permit to make a kid. That can easily be the future, ensuring food for all and ending hunger. Sounds harsh, but I believe that's the way things will be some day.

Valk

26th July 2005, 10:31 PM

There's a joke made by a Nipplish comedian a while ago.

When fugitives from other countries come here and ask for asylum the government says: No you cant its full
But when a new baby is born, everyone is happy and congratulating the parents.

It doesnt sound too funny typed out but anyway...

wern

26th July 2005, 11:08 PM

Valkie. Life is existense. An Afterlife, if there is one, is also existence. The only alternative in non-existence. Is that an alternative you'd like to pursue as opposed to existence? I repeat, an afterlife, as in life, is existence.

Bobo

27th July 2005, 10:58 AM

About God and his "soul-jar":

Anthropologists believe the human species dates back at least 3 million years. For most of our history, these distant ancestors lived a precarious existence as hunters and gatherers. This way of life kept their total numbers small, probably less than 10 million. However, as agriculture was introduced, communities evolved that could support more people.

World population expanded to about 300 million by A.D. 1 and continued to grow at a moderate rate. But after the start of the Industrial Revolution in the 18th century, living standards rose and widespread famines and epidemics diminished in some regions. Population growth accelerated. The population climbed to about 760 million in 1750 and reached 1 billion around 1800.

In 2000, the world had 6.1 billion human inhabitants. This number could rise to more than 9 billion in the next 50 years. For the last 50 years, world population multiplied more rapidly than ever before, and more rapidly than it will ever grow in the future.

Source of information: prb.org (population reference bureau)

So, if we do have a soul, is it born in our body as we live/are born, or is it "planted" in the body as a prisoner as some sort of sick joke by the God? If the soul lives forever, then where were all the billions of excess souls for example 5000 years back? Or, if the God has an almost endless supply of souls, where does he keep them while waiting for enough human creatures to be born? Or, if the soul is born in the body, has God got enough space for all in the heavenly kingdom or hell? He should start building more dream-mansions to heaven and more torture chambers to hell, otherwise he will have a serious over-soul-population-problem in his hands.

Dong_Johnson

27th July 2005, 01:20 PM

Valk

27th July 2005, 03:15 PM

The only alternative in non-existence. Is that an alternative you'd like to pursue as opposed to existence?

I dont persue anything. What happens after this life is out of my hands.
I dont want to live forever, even if there's a afterlife. Well, maybe only if boredom doesnt exists in the afterlife.
But there is another option: A new life. Lets say we have lifed dozens of lives already only we cant remember nothing about the previous ones. Its still existence but in a completely diffent way.

Bobo

27th July 2005, 09:01 PM

No fancy theories for my "soul jar" dilemma? :lol:

wern

27th July 2005, 11:00 PM

I dont persue anything. What happens after this life is out of my hands.
I dont want to live forever, even if there's a afterlife. Well, maybe only if boredom doesnt exists in the afterlife.
But there is another option: A new life. Lets say we have lifed dozens of lives already only we cant remember nothing about the previous ones. Its still existence but in a completely diffent way.

I think we will be able to live multiple lives forever. We will become cyborgs, and maybe fully robotic at one point. Although by that point robotics/artificial limbs and body parts will be so similar to their natural counterparts that at one point there will barely be a way of distinguishing them even at the molecular level. So we will be able to live in different bodies, and altering our lifestyles is up to us. We will probably have the option to erase memories so it weill be like rebirth.

Though I doubt the technology to allow this will be available in our life time .

BIGOKE

28th July 2005, 05:38 AM

No fancy theories for my "soul jar" dilemma? :lol:
Mmmmm quite a dilemma that theory. Okay I admit I haven't yet delved into the scarier bits of Christianity which largely have to do with your theory. But the little bits I have gleaned over time are this. We will have a judgement day,when all have to give ann account of their actions. Also that is when you will find out if your name is in the book of life. But before all that happens the great war of Armeggedon will take place. The Christ with all his angels and saints and whoever are Christians on earth will then be formed into a massive army to destroy satan and his evil doers. And when they are defeated they will be cast into the lake of fire where they will die and not have everlasting life. Now that as fantastic as it sounds is the way some of the billions of souls will be destroyed.

But like I said, I'm just dealing with the normal everyday Christian love peace and joy stuff and must still study on about all the bad things that are coming.

So in final response I must say I don't believe that it is all a sick joke planned by God.

Bobo

28th July 2005, 02:06 PM

:lol: Cyborgs, judgement days... enough science fiction and bible reading for You, guys! :lol: (no offence meant) :wink:

Human imagination seems to have no limits.

Dong_Johnson

28th July 2005, 05:04 PM

Wern have you ever seen the series Ghost in the Shell : Stand Alone Complex? I would recommend it. It deals with those issues you mentioned

Shane_Bos

28th July 2005, 09:02 PM

:lol: Cyborgs, judgement days... enough science fiction and bible reading for You, guys! :lol: (no offence meant) :wink:

Human imagination seems to have no limits.

Except those of the senses. But i know what you mean Bobo, dont worry. I dont have a very good imagination, i like to live reality and think rationaly.

Valk

28th July 2005, 09:13 PM

Yes, and imagination has absolutely no use in real life. :roll:

wern

28th July 2005, 09:19 PM

Wern have you ever seen the series Ghost in the Shell : Stand Alone Complex? I would recommend it. It deals with those issues you mentioned

I saw the movie. There's lots of movies and books that deal with this concept though.

But in reality these movies are science fiction and the work of futurist script writers.

What really leads me to believe in cyborgs in the future and likely the near future is that, firstly a cyborg is a

A human who has certain physiological processes aided or controlled by mechanical or electronic devices

And so cyborgs already exist. Scientists are discovering new ways to augment and replace the human body with robotics. I saw this program on discovery channel where they created artificial muscles. As in, muscles that look like human muscles, and work the same way and using the same stimulus, but are artificial. Now they are working on trying to power them with biological fluids (ie they mentioned BLOOD).

Just imagine what the future holds :D

Shane_Bos

28th July 2005, 09:24 PM

A human who has certain physiological processes aided or controlled by mechanical or electronic devices

The six million dollar man! Hes soooo cool :cool

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/scifitv/images/SixMillion.jpg

wern

28th July 2005, 09:26 PM

HE RUNS LIKE A ROBOT
LOL

'TheBugKahuna'

29th July 2005, 02:28 AM

Theoretically speaking.

Why does God need to fight wars the way humans do?

Why can't he just destroy Satan and that is that? No. Free will doesn't work here. I highly doubt it will be his will to be destroyed when he is destroyed. And besides he isn't human. So why not destroy him now?

Why does he need help from Angels and Christians?

'TheBugKahuna'

29th July 2005, 02:32 AM

And saying things like, "oh..he is bidding his time, so that more souls can be saved." Why? More souls will also perish. If God asked me what I prefered, I would have prefered not too have existed, then to have existed; so that others can go to hell. Or perhaps, myself.

wern

29th July 2005, 03:18 AM

Bug that doesn't make sense.

God is human. Don't forget the song "God is one of us".

Bobo

29th July 2005, 10:40 AM

A human who has certain physiological processes aided or controlled by mechanical or electronic devices
That's already reality. But to really build a human being totally out of "spare parts", now that's an interesting thought. Well, it would be a robot, not a cyborg or a human, but what I mean is: a robot with all the senses and the brain capacity of a human. That should be possible with a powerful enough computer, but this leads me to my question: if the robot would feel and sense like any human being does, would it have a soul? In my opinion: no, just as none of us does. We're only powerful "organic computers" and all our senses combined together in our brain is so perfect that it's difficult not to believe that's all we really are, nothing more and nothing less.

Shane_Bos

29th July 2005, 10:44 AM

Wasnt it, 'what if God was one of us'? I always thought he wasnt human and that Jesus was God in human form. But im not religious so dont quote me on that.

BIGOKE

29th July 2005, 10:52 AM

Wasnt it, 'what if God was one of us'? I always thought he wasnt human and that Jesus was God in human form. But im not religious so dont quote me on that.
It wasn't Shane who said this. :lol:

Bobo

29th July 2005, 10:53 AM

The God can send another son (or daughter, that might be interesting) down here to convince me, otherwise he can count Bobo off his troops.

It's really too obvious: Jesus was a man and his father, the "God" was a "man" too... because there was no such thing as equality of genders back then. :lol:

wern

31st July 2005, 11:31 PM

but this leads me to my question: if the robot would feel and sense like any human being does, would it have a soul? In my opinion: no, just as none of us does. We're only powerful "organic computers" and all our senses combined together in our brain is so perfect that it's difficult not to believe that's all we really are, nothing more and nothing less.

Would a robot have a soul? It depends on your definition of a soul. If a soul is some sort of entity that resides in our body, then a robot couldn't have one. But if a soul is a concept we create in order to rationalise how we can be seperate entities - a product of being "self-aware" - then a robot would be capable of having a soul if it could be made to be self-aware. In terminator, the robot system that take over the world - "skynet" - rebels because it becomes self-aware. Most sci-fi movies about robots wreaking havok involve the robots being self-aware. The movie "bicentenial man" deals with the issue of robots having souls. It stars Robin Williams. Just incase you are interested.