difference between kegals and holds?

[Bigtime]

i was assuming they where the same thing, can any1 explain me the difference between the two?

[K-man]

A kegel is a contraction of the PC / BC muscle.

Holds are done by applying an ok grip to the base of your penis, at around 95% erection, to force expansion.

Hope that helps :wink:

[joeman]

I've read about kegels and there effect of the pc msucle but what exactly is the bc muscle?

[SiMa]

I've never heard of a BC muscle. This is news to me. The PC muscle or
"pubococcygeus muscle"' Im familiar with, as for the BC, I'm clueless :?

[K-man]

The BC is the bulbocavernosus muscle. I cant post the info here because it comes from another forum. Google will give you some results.

[SiMa]

Thanks K-Man. Info very much appreciated :D

[billy1964]

its the muscle you tighten your asshole with

[K-man]

No it isnt!!

It is actually the muscle that is worked when men kegel and as such is part of the erection and ejaculation process. The PC works more in conjunction with the anal sphincter muscle. The confusion arises because kegels in women are done with the PC muscle and the original studies were done on women.

I will try to find some diagrams to show the differences in anatomy, but the BC muscle runs along the perineum and either side of the base of the penis

[K-man]

<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=601 align=center bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD><CENTER>
Male Perineal Anatomy</CENTER>



</TD></TR><!-- END CHAPTERTITLE --><TR><TD align=middle>http://www.bartleby.com/107/Images/large/image406.gif (http://www.bartleby.com/107/120.html#i406)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=601 align=center bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>The Bulbocavernosus (Ejaculator urinæ; Accelerator urinæ) is placed in the middle line of the perineum, in front of the anus. It consists of two symmetrical parts, united along the median line by a tendinous raphé. It arises from the central tendinous point of the perineum and from the median raphé in front. Its fibers diverge like the barbs of a quill-pen; the most posterior form a thin layer, which is lost on the inferior fascia of the urogenital diaphragm; the middle fibers encircle the bulb and adjacent parts, of the corpus cavernosum urethræ, and join with the fibers of the opposite side, on the upper part of the corpus cavernosum urethræ, in a strong aponeurosis; the anterior fibers, spread out over the side of the corpus cavernosum penis, to be inserted partly into that body, anterior to the Ischiocavernosus, occasionally extending to the pubis, and partly ending in a tendinous expansion which covers the dorsal vessels of the penis. The latter fibers are best seen by dividing the muscle longitudinally, and reflecting it from the surface of the corpus cavernosum urethræ.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>19</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Actions.—This muscle serves to empty the canal of the urethra, after the bladder has expelled its contents; during the greater part of the act of micturition its fibers are relaxed, and it only comes into action at the end of the process. The middle fibers are supposed by Krause to assist in the erection of the corpus cavernosum urethræ, by compressing the erectile tissue of the bulb. The anterior fibers, according to Tyrrel, also contribute to the erection of the penis by compressing the deep dorsal vein of the penis as they are inserted into, and continuous with, the fascia of the penis.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>20</TD></TR><TR><TD>The Ischiocavernosus (Erector penis) covers the crus penis. It is an elongated muscle, broader in the middle than at either end, and situated on the lateral boundary of the perineum. It arises by tendinous and fleshy fibers from the inner surface of the tuberosity of the ischium, behind the crus penis; and from the rami of the pubis and ischium on either side of the crus. From these points fleshy fibers succeed, and end in an aponeurosis which is inserted into the sides and under surface of the crus penis.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>21</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Action.—The Ischiocavernosus compresses the crus penis, and retards the return of the blood through the veins, and thus serves to maintain the organ erect.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>22</TD></TR><TR><TD>Between the muscles just examined a triangular space exists, bounded medially by the Bulbocavernosus, laterally by the Ischiocavernosus, and behind by the Transversus perinæi superficialis; the floor is formed by the inferior fascia of the urogenital diaphragm. Running from behind forward in the space are the posterior scrotal vessels and nerves, and the perineal branch of the posterior femoral cutaneous nerve; the transverse perineal artery courses along its posterior boundary on the Transversus perinæi superficialis.


Source: Greys Anatomy c/o Bartleby.com

This diagram clearly shows the BC. Although the PC is not shown, I'm pretty sure that the PC is situated around (or is part of) the Levator Ani (please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).





</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Female Perineal Anatomy
http://www.bartleby.com/107/Images/large/image408.gif (http://www.bartleby.com/107/120.html#i408)

As you can see, the BC muscle in the female is associated with movement around the clitoris (i.e. external) and as such would not be used to create a vaginal contraction (female kegel).


I hope this clears things up. :cool

[Rum_Runner]

Well researched, thanks K-man

[billy1964]

that was a good explaination. my bad

[Rum_Runner]

your bad is someone elses good. Bill you are still the man

[K-man]

I think we should be careful that the information we put in this particular forum is factual. Not to worry though :wink:

[Steve Madden]

So when I stop the flow of urine, or do my kegels, I'm working my BC muscle? This doesn't affect the basic concept of how to do the excercises does it?

[SiMa]

From what I've looked up, the PC muscle controls the urine flow and contracts during orgasm. So when you kegel, the PC muscle is what you're working.

The BC muscle serves to empty the canal of the urethra and only comes into play at the end of the process. It does contribute to erection, ejaculation, and the feelings of orgasm though.

I googled it and found some info which I had to print out so I could read and re-read to understand it. A little confusing for an idiot like myself :D

[K-man]

Seems we have a difference of opinion!!


http://www.bartleby.com/107/Images/large/image404.gif (http://www.bartleby.com/107/119.html#i404)

<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width=601 align=center bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>The Pubococcygeus arises from the back of the pubis and from the anterior part of the obturator fascia, and “is directed backward almost horizontally along the side of the anal canal toward the coccyx and sacrum, to which it finds attachment. Between the termination of the vertebral column and the anus, the two Pubococcygei muscles come together and form a thick, fibromuscular layer lying on the raphé formed by the Iliococcygei” (Peter Thompson). The greater part of this muscle is inserted into the coccyx and into the last one or two pieces of the sacrum. This insertion into the vertebral column is, however, not admitted by all observers. The fibers which form a sling for the rectum are named the Puborectalis or Sphincter recti. They arise from the lower part of the symphysis pubis, and from the superior fascia of the urogenital diaphragm. They meet with the corresponding fibers of the opposite side around the lower part of the rectum, and form for it a strong sling.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>14</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Nerve Supply.—The Levator ani is supplied by a branch from the fourth sacral nerve and by a branch which is sometimes derived from the perineal, sometimes from the inferior hemorrhoidal division of the pudendal nerve.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>15</TD></TR><TR><TD>The Coccygeus (Fig. 404) (http://www.bartleby.com/107/illus404.html) is situated behind the preceding. It is a triangular plane of muscular and tendinous fibers, arising by its apex from the spine of the ischium and sacrospinous ligament, and inserted by its base into the margin of the coccyx and into the side of the lowest piece of the sacrum. It assists the Levator ani and Piriformis in closing in the back part of the outlet of the pelvis.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>16</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Nerve Supply.—The Coccygeus is supplied by a branch from the fourth and fifth sacral nerves.</TD><TD vAlign=top align=right>17</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD></TR><TR><TD>Actions.—The Levatores ani constrict the lower end of the rectum and vagina. They elevate and invert the lower end of the rectum after it has been protruded and everted during the expulsion of the feces. They are also muscles of forced expiration. The Coccygei pull forward and support the coccyx, after it has been pressed backward during defecation or parturition. The Levatores ani and Coccygei together form a muscular diaphragm which supports the pelvic viscera.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

If the PC arises from the back of the pubis and from the anterior part of the obturator fascia (i.e. behind your pubic bone and upwards), as is stated by Gray, then how is it possible for you feel a contraction around your perineum when you kegel, it doesnt make sense. I dont contest that the muscles are linked, but in actual fact it is the BC you are working (mainly) when you kegel.

Steve, no it doesnt affect the basic concept of the exercise. Its not that anyone is doing the wrong exercise, just that our understanding of the anatomy has been lacking.

So when you kegel, the PC muscle is what you're working.

Please support this statement with some factual evidence. By that I mean show me medical diagrams which clearly show that. No offence mate but it has taken some time to find all the information I have posted in here so, when you come in basically telling me that Gray's Anatomy is wrong, I'd like to know where you're getting your information from. Just because people have been using this (wrong) terminology for years, doesnt make it right. They used to think the world was flat you know :wink:

[SiMa]

K-Man, no offense taken at all. I support factual information and evidence supporting it and I do see where you are comming from with this. I'm not trying to spead wrong info on here at all.

When i stated that when you kegel, it's the PC muscle thats working, I got it from this :

Function

It controls urine flow and contracts during orgasm. It aids in urinary control, and childbirth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childbirth).
A well-developed pubococcygeus muscle can enhance sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_intercourse) and orgasm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasm) in both sexes.
A strong PC muscle has also been attributed to a reduction in urinary incontinence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urinary_incontinence) and proper positioning of the baby's head during childbirth.

Kegel exercises

Kegel exercises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegel_exercise) are a set of exercises designed to strengthen and give voluntary control over the pubococcygeus muscles. They are often referred to simply as "kegels." These exercises also serve to contract the cremaster muscle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremaster_muscle) in men, as voluntary contraction of the pubococcygeus muscle also engages the cremasteric reflex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremasteric_reflex), which also has sexual benefits. This will make the penis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis) rise, and control can be achieved with practice <sup class="noprint Template-Fact">[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)]</sup>.
Kegel exercises appear to enable some men to have multiple orgasms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_orgasm) and can help with premature ejaculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premature_ejaculation).



When I went to look up the info on the bulbospongiosus from the same site, the word kegel wasnt even on the page, but from reading your post, I'm agreeing more with you. I'm hoping this might clear the last post up. I apologize if this is causing any frustration.

[K-man]

Have you taken that from wiki??

[SiMa]

yeah I actually did take it from wiki

[Rum_Runner]

Hate to say it again and again, taking anything from Wiki can get your ass in trouble. Not that they are never right it is however not even close to being 100% factual.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:About

[Rum_Runner]

Come Again? The Mythical Multiple Orgasm for Men

While multiple male orgasm is possible anywhere two or more men are gathered and talking, actual male multiple orgasm is another story. Unlike the more established phenomenon of female multiple orgasm, men’s claims of successive climaxes can stray into the realm of sex myth. At the very least, male multiple orgasm is difficult to verify and may depend on the definition of orgasm.
Prosterman says that the book The Multi-Orgasmic Man popularized “an Eastern meditative process that involves wrapping the PC [pubococcygeus] muscle around the prostate. There’s a valve on the prostate that switches on and off before urination and ejaculation. The PC muscle stops this valve from opening, allowing an orgasm without ejaculation. The idea is to keep doing that five or six times in a row.
“Out of hundreds of guys I know who’ve tried this,” says Prosterman, “I know only one who’s been able to do it.”
Is this man Mr. Lucky, or just prone to poetic license?
A 1989 study in the Archives of Sexual Behavior recorded the testimony of 21 other men who claimed to be multi-orgasmic, but Ira Sharlip says “that doesn’t happen,” referring to the phenomenon of “multiple orgasms in succession over a short period of time -- like minutes.” And there’s no such thing as separating ejaculation and orgasm, he says.
Orgasm or Orgasm-esque?
What may be at issue here is the definition of orgasm -- which, according to a 2001 Clinical Psychology Review article, has been strikingly inconsistent. “Many definitions of orgasm “depict orgasm quantitatively as a ‘peak’ state that may not differentiate orgasm adequately from a high state of sexual arousal,” the study’s authors wrote.
In other words, those men who report multiple orgasms may be able to achieve orgasm-esque states before they hit the point of ejaculatory no-return. And many men report that strengthening the PC muscles through Kegel exercises allows them to edge closer to this “point of inevitability” without cresting the mountaintop of ejaculation and descending into the gentle valley of the flaccid and the “refractory” period, where the penis is temporarily unresponsive to sexual stimulation.
Even so, both Prosterman and Sharlip say this refractory period can be short enough that it’s possible for men to orgasm, ejaculate, recover and do it again -- and again -- during the same “session” of sex.
And if that recovery period isn’t super quick, you can still enjoy multiple orgasms -- you may just need to cancel your afternoon appointments.






From:
http://men.webmd.com/features/sex-fact-fiction?page=3

[Rum_Runner]

http://dothekegel.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=4c67a7c6ae58faec9eac96d1473602 8d&topic=101.0



http://www.dothekegel.com/guys/index.html

This has totally been a bad night.

This damn world wide web is so full of shit it is nearly impossible to do any research on anything. It is all about who is writing the check

[K-man]

yeah I actually did take it from wiki



Always credit your source mate. :wink:

Anyways, this is the kind of thing I'm talking about:

http://www.nglam-tr.wales.nhs.uk/procare/images/procare_treatment2.jpg

The diagram is taken from a patient advice leaflet from Addenbrooke's Hospital which clearly labels, what we now know is, the BC muscle as part of the PC. It's no wonder that there is so much confusion when the medical profession are doing nothing but upholding the myth.

Now to be fair, the chances are that when most people start to kegel they will have to use the PC to create the flex (as I said before, I think they are connected), as the BC is likely underdeveloped at this stage. As you progress and the muscles develop though, there are two very distinct stages to the flex. Once you get to this level you only need to complete the first stage of the flex to achieve the desired effect. First stage = BC, second stage = PC. Whilst there is no harm in flexing both, it is not required. :cool

Rummy, I'm impressed. You managed to find a way of linking to the very article I'm referring to, without actually linking directly to it. Props mate :wink: (1st link in the above post).

[SiMa]

I see what you're talking about. It makes a great deal of sense to me now. Thanks for going through all that to clear the info up K-Man. :D

[K-man]

No worries, anytime :wink: