adventurer question..

[soserious]

so, to set the scene:

you have just arrived on an unknown land (to you), you find yourself surrounded in a bustling crowd in the midday sun.
you have some money, not much but enough. you head off in the opposite direction of the crowd (you want to explore, be in youre own space for the first time in too long, and find a place to maybe make some new friends, or at least a refreshing place to crash out for a few days before moving on.

youre hungry, thirsty and tired, if not a little excited too.

what are you thinking, what do you do....

(let us know)

[Bobo]

I would head towards the crowd and learn from them everything I need to know about their culture, and from there I'd just go with the flow...

[Clockers]

Not sure! :cool

[Baseballer8]

Find the hottest girl around and ask for her to show me around. :wink:

[wern]

I would fine the consulate and get some info on the country and learn about precautions to take. Wandering around in a country you know nothing about could end up in disaster.

[Bobo]

Wandering around in a country you know nothing about could end up in disaster.
That's what makes it so much more interesting and exciting! I wish I were born hundreds of years back when there still were areas on earth nobody had gone to. I'd love to explore the unknown! Now I'm born in this freakin' transition period when the earth has been explored but space exploration isn't possible, we haven't even been to Mars yet! :x

[soserious]

That's what makes it so much more interesting and exciting! I wish I were born hundreds of years back when there still were areas on earth nobody had gone to. I'd love to explore the unknown! Now I'm born in this freakin' transition period when the earth has been explored but space exploration isn't possible, we haven't even been to Mars yet! :x

actually as i understand it there are still a few places on earth unexplored.
what was it, some remote places in the amazon, very old pools..and underground lakes of water from millions of years ago, cut off by the sea retreating ffrom theland, leaving species of the time trapped and forced to evolve.
apparently theres many of those.
then ovcourse theres western and parts of central and parts of northern australia, theres also islands out there, tiny ones. then theres still thousands of miles of ocean floor, even though theyve started exploring that theres still VAST amounts unexplored.

and then we as you say have space, oceans out there on moons of huge planets, ive seen a docu on tv where the animals of the deep survive and thrive without sunlight.

then we have subteranea. tiny basic lifeforms crawling around down there.

then we have the wind and the sky.

and one day, when people have died off largely, and nature can take hold again, therell be more things to explore.

ss

[Thought Pro]

Go find the closest Internet Cafe and logon to CC, of course.

[Bobo]

I know what You mean, SS, but those places aren't really unknown, only unexplored. I mean for example the exitement Kolumbus had when sailing to totally unknown waters with no maps or anything. With maps and satellite pics this planet of ours is known by every inch, nothing totally unknown to explore.

[soserious]

yes, i too understand what youre saying, no great unknown lands, no great unknown world beyond our own part.

i still think that we should be using some of our technologies to spread life and create life rather than just use it up:
for example,

do many of the "possible life bearing planets" bear life?

such as Titan, and other moons of jupiter?
what about jupiter itself?

the problem with human thinking is that we seem to want to find life like us, or whe we think of *seeding life on another planetary body we think of all the problems WE would have. wtf? who says we gotta be on every seeded place?
will we ,in some years to come, have planetary gardens? or the 7 wonders of or solar system?
see, as i heard life couldvfe been seeded on earth by a meteor.

i think we should be out there seeding life in as many places as possible, afterall, when he sun dies and evaporates our precious water off our world life will die.
to quote the "fifth element"
"time not important, only life mportant"


insects have been around for hundreds of milions of years i understand the mos successful creatures to dateb i think, do we not try to seed a planet with basic plant life, water life and such?

these are our new great unknowns, imagine, worlds many times larger than the earth, or smaller even, with totally alien systems.
i dont think people should be everywhere, but we should start thinking about LIFE and where its headed.

tell you what Bobo, if ever i find out how to go back in time to when the oceans were shallow and tropical, no politics or factories , (but huge scary creatures.. lol) i`ll give you a headsup ;)

seriously though, life was quite likely seeded here, look how much success it had, i think it is our obligation to spread it to other places.
-not for people to colonise, sow and create industrial planets..hell no- more to just let things have at least a chance.

afterall, bringing green life to a dead rock somewhere has got to be better than leaving it dead. life is better than no life imo.

weve done plenty of irreversible damage, time to NOT HAVE ALL OUR EGGS IN ONE BASKET so to speak.



ss

thoughts?

[Bobo]

tell you what Bobo, if ever i find out how to go back in time to when the oceans were shallow and tropical, no politics or factories , (but huge scary creatures.. lol) i`ll give you a headsup ;)
That would be cool, count me in! Seriously, I would go without hesitation, leaving this polluted and greedy world wouldn't make me sad at all.

That seed thing... interesting. The problem is we don't have the technology yet, and places like Titan are still quite difficult for earth-like life. Maybe some day... The thing is, I don't think earth-like planets are too rare in the universe, there may be millions of similar planets out there. Thinking that this would be the only one is so stupid it hurts... if one understands how big our universe is, he can't seriously say there wouldn't be life elsewhere.

People are looking for UFO:s and stuff... personally I would be pleased if we even found extra terrestrial bacteria somewhere.

[Valk]

Too that if we find extra terrestrial life, its much too far for us to visit us.

[Bobo]

How can we find them if they're too far away? Radio waves, I suppose... Finding life shouldn't be too impossible, but finding technologically advanced lifeforms... very much more difficult.

[soserious]

That would be cool, count me in! Seriously, I would go without hesitation, leaving this polluted and greedy world wouldn't make me sad at all.

ok, i`ll count you in. :cool

That seed thing... interesting. The problem is we don't have the technology yet, and places like Titan are still quite difficult for earth-like life. Maybe some day... The thing is, I don't think earth-like planets are too rare in the universe, there may be millions of similar planets out there. Thinking that this would be the only one is so stupid it hurts... if one understands how big our universe is, he can't seriously say there wouldn't be life elsewhere.

People are looking for UFO:s and stuff... personally I would be pleased if we even found extra terrestrial bacteria somewhere.


no, no, i dont think that theres not life elswhere... afterall, where did the seeding asteroid come from? no, i purely mean that life HERE must move outwards, wether t meets other life along the way or not..

and too i realise that other planets arent set up to handle earth like life, except that some of our life is more interchangeable.
i was thinking more along the lines of seeding billions of micro organisms, like algae and other things, tiny worms, the ones used in space and possibly other micro organisms- the ones that thrive in our seas, in our air and that float around in the upper atmospheere..tiny each, but without them we`d all die.

over hundreds, thousands of years if all went well enough youre looking at a planet with some kind of atmosphere, green seas/ land and a foundation for further life like insects or fish.

dolphin like creatures swimming in deep oceans ofjupiter.
to spread some of our living organisms from here from possible planet to planet further away from our own current world.

obviously sticking a horse or human on titan would be a pretty short and ugly
life, very short. but as we know in most cases the most basic of organisms tend to survive. less complexity- less to go wrong, further more with a fundamental life form you can theoretically have more mutations andmorevariety- a template to evolve fropm rather than a more evolved creature and therefore a more limited one.

ameobas and plankton and lichen and such.

we have the technology to take such life into space, we have the technology to land "manless" explorers on other planetary bodies, why not send out our own seeding ships?
take a cargo of many individual "bombs" and seed hem with various basic lifeforms and use all the various ways of landing them we can . kind of a shotgun approach.

as i understand it rocks and metals are made from amino acids, inorganic amino acids but still some is viable in food chains , minerals ect. whats to say lichens of some kind could not survive on rocks somewhere? possibly eventually coverng whole continents, or that some of the seeded plankton wouldnt smehow find an energy source and use that and the water it has from the ocean it was landed into to grow.

as we know life has to have a systematic chain to balance and survive (whch obiously humans have totally destroyed here).

ive seen many programmes about life o earth and even theories on how we might seed life elseqwhere (even though i am sure too that life is SOMEWHERE out there too) but why just rely on that?

what are the basic fundamenta ingredients of the first stages of an entire ecosystem?

perhaps i will look nto biodomes and how they operate.

im still thinking algae as one of the very first stages though.

it wouldbe an interesting thing to work towards.

thoughts?

SS
ss

[Bobo]

no, no, i dont think that theres not life elswhere...
I was speaking generally, didn't mean You would think like that, quite vice versa. You seem to have an scientifically open mind like I do. :cool

[Bobo]

Yes, micro organisms could survive. I just recently read a book on the subject, about life on earth in places nothing should be able to survive. Life deep inside rocks, life on deepest ocean floors... organisms that can be frozen for millions of years and when melted they continue their lives like nothing happened. Have You heard of the "smokers" in deep oceans? Organisms living in total darkness without oxygen, in very hot sulphuric streams called smokers... nothing should survive there, but there is life, in heat of 350 degrees celsius (3,5x boiling point), without light and oxygen... amazing.

http://www.amnh.org/nationalcenter/expeditions/blacksmokers/images/large/smoker1_lg.jpg
Black smokers in deep ocean floors.

[Valk]

How can we find them if they're too far away? Radio waves, I suppose... Finding life shouldn't be too impossible, but finding technologically advanced lifeforms... very much more difficult.

Finding is something different then paying a visit to it.
Watching a planet from far, far away and collection data is something completely different standing with your two feet on another planet and coming into actual contact with those new lifeforms.

[Bobo]

Seeing a planet with amazingly powerful telescopes is possible, but to see life on them? Only possible by visiting... but I know what You mean.

[Valk]

I didnt meant watching with only telescopes but collecting radiowaves and sorts.

[soserious]

Yes, micro organisms could survive. I just recently read a book on the subject, about life on earth in places nothing should be able to survive. Life deep inside rocks, life on deepest ocean floors... organisms that can be frozen for millions of years and when melted they continue their lives like nothing happened. Have You heard of the "smokers" in deep oceans? Organisms living in total darkness without oxygen, in very hot sulphuric streams called smokers... nothing should survive there, but there is life, in heat of 350 degrees celsius (3,5x boiling point), without light and oxygen... amazing.

http://www.amnh.org/nationalcenter/expeditions/blacksmokers/images/large/smoker1_lg.jpg
Black smokers in deep ocean floors.

yes, EXACTLY!
ive also seen a type of shrimp living on these smokers. somehow they dont get cooked and killed its really amazing.. now its likely theres heat from "smokers" on other planets, even gaseous (theory) jupiter is thought to have massive oceans. what better place to seed life than in h2o?

[Bobo]

I didnt meant watching with only telescopes but collecting radiowaves and sorts.
Yes, I know exactly what You mean. Life can be found on asteroids too, and their origin may remain a mystery forever...

[Bobo]

Yes, there can be life out there on planets and moons that aren't green and lush like earth. For example, it's a total mystery how there is life on the bottom of the oceans... and the most amazing thing is: they have genetic similarities with other lifeforms living in daylight!!! :shock: At some point, there was some kind of lifeform that is the ancestor to almost anything on this planet.

[soserious]

Yes, there can be life out there on planets and moons that aren't green and lush like earth. For example, it's a total mystery how there is life on the bottom of the oceans... and the most amazing thing is: they have genetic similarities with other lifeforms living in daylight!!! :shock: At some point, there was some kind of lifeform that is the ancestor to almost anything on this planet.

yes, ive been watching the new series of 1hour documentaries about it on bbc1 uk, 9-10pm, thursday nights. :)

the latest one showed how mammals came from the same ancestor as the dinosaurs ancestor, amphibians-to reptiles-to mammals-back to water (for some) onwarsd for others.
and how insects were one of the first species, originating from crab like animals, hard shelled which left the water, their hard outer shells alloing them to survive on land gravity.
fascinating, i love that stuff. let me see if i can find a link:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/journeyoflife/

here, check this out.
:wink:

ss

[soserious]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/life/beginnings/index.shtml (http://)

[Bobo]

There is this wise man here in Finland, Esko Valtaoja... and he has written two amazingly interesting and wise books on the subject. I'm not sure if they're available in english, but I'll check it out. The books will blow Your mind! :D

[soserious]

There is this wise man here in Finland, Esko Valtaoja... and he has written two amazingly interesting and wise books on the subject. I'm not sure if they're available in english, but I'll check it out. The books will blow Your mind! :D

:D
tell me.
im gonna see if i can search it out too..

[Bobo]

At home in the cosmos addresses our place in the universe. This is a book asking: whence came we? who are we? wither go we? Published in Finnish and Swedish, the book won the prestigious Finlandia science book of the year prize in 2002, and is already in its 7th edition.

A discussion of the future : for humanity, for the environment, for life and for the cosmos. This is the second book by Esko Valtaoja, who was the winner of the 2002 Science book of the year. Published in Finnish.

It seems like they're not available in english I'm afraid. :x Keep an eye on them, I'm sure they'd be among the most interesting books You will ever read.

[Ed]

Seeding earth-life onto other planets seems harmless but just like when they introduced (by accident) rats on the island of the dodo birds, or some of the various plague animals to Australia (toads, cats, rabbits, etc): introductions often don't go as smoothly as possible. If a planet could support earth-life, it could very well have life of its own, which could be obliterated by the invading earth-life. Biological imperialism!

[Bobo]

That's so very true. Only in very young environments with nothing else than some micro-organisms, planting a "seed" might be a good idea. Anywhere else where is already a working ecosystem, messing with the balance is never a good idea. Just as human beings messing with earths balance isn't a good idea at all... we will pay the price, sooner or later.

[soserious]

Seeding earth-life onto other planets seems harmless but just like when they introduced (by accident) rats on the island of the dodo birds, or some of the various plague animals to Australia (toads, cats, rabbits, etc): introductions often don't go as smoothly as possible. If a planet could support earth-life, it could very well have life of its own, which could be obliterated by the invading earth-life. Biological imperialism!

yes but if theres NO life whats to "take over"? theres no ethical consideration there.
the point is to preserve the life we do KNOW about by spreading it onto other planetary bodies.
just upping the survival chances for life. :cool

[Bobo]

What Ed meant was, if there is a place capable of maintaining earth-like life, there must already be some life of it's own... or if there isn't yet, there would be in the future. Planting earth life on a planet or a moon at it's early stages of evolution one could block the new possibilities of new and different life there.

[soserious]

What Ed meant was, if there is a place capable of maintaining earth-like life, there must already be some life of it's own... or if there isn't yet, there would be in the future. Planting earth life on a planet or a moon at it's early stages of evolution one could block the new possibilities of new and different life there.


yeah, i understood, but im saying F##K THAT time waits for no man, algae or aemobia.
why wait?

[Bobo]

why wait?
Because time is short for a man, but a thousand years is nothing when talking about evolution in astronomical scale. A human lifetime is nothing, but enough to make some bad damage that can't be fixed.

[Ed]

Anyone watch the new Dr Who series? It has just begun in Canada. On the second episode, they were at this tourist resort where the entire point was to watch the Earth's sun go supernova. Yes earth-life had flown the coup and spread throughout the universe, but on the other hand, no effort was made to stop the destruction of the Earth. It was almost seen as a beautiful and appropriate end of life.

[soserious]

Because time is short for a man, but a thousand years is nothing when talking about evolution in astronomical scale. A human lifetime is nothing, but enough to make some bad damage that can't be fixed.


yes, but humans could be part of evolution in this way.
besides i dont mean to put humans everwhere.

to just sit back and "wait" for the other dead planets to somehow seed themselves seems weird since theres a good chance thatll never happen.

but remember i said a dead planet, arbitrarily destroying any extraterrestrial evolution wouldnt be ethical, but i really dont see the issue in sending a bunch of amaebias, algae and microscopic organisms to a dead planet and letting things just happen over hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of years.
im not saying we need be involved in it more than that neccesarily.

[Ed]

Another way to approach this is what science fiction calls terraforming: take a planet that cannot support life and through technological means adjust it so that it has an atmosphere, water, etc for eventually colonisation.

[soserious]

Anyone watch the new Dr Who series? It has just begun in Canada. On the second episode, they were at this tourist resort where the entire point was to watch the Earth's sun go supernova. Yes earth-life had flown the coup and spread throughout the universe, but on the other hand, no effort was made to stop the destruction of the Earth. It was almost seen as a beautiful and appropriate end of life.


no, i dont watch it.

appropriate end to life?
geez, i dont think people should confuse natural selection and the cycle of the ecosystem with world wide extinction, regardless of life "out there".
life is incredibly important.
while we have lots of life it isnt valued, but when species start to die out THEN we care, so the whole planet dried and dead..that sux so bad . SO BAD.

ive always wondrered if we couldnt somehow move the earth away from he sun when its dying and dangerous- like moving the biggest mobile home in our history lol. the implications would suck, wed get sick and massive disasters. but perhaps we wouldnt be engulfed by a red giant sun cooking the planet to crisp deadness.

*ever see that cartoon with fry, bender and the othes? farscape?? i forgot the name, the one where benders all alone in space with a rock full of life..

its not un-ethical to want to preserve life, especially where the alternative is ultimate death of our corner of the universe or whatever.


even during mass extinctions weve had some survivors- thats whats important, some life struggling on.


ss

[soserious]

Another way to approach this is what science fiction calls terraforming: take a planet that cannot support life and through technological means adjust it so that it has an atmosphere, water, etc for eventually colonisation.

yes terraforming too, but water is obviously the key.

but i mean to seed life wherever it possibly can (on dead planetary bodies, asteroids ect)

[Ed]

the main problem with moving the earth away from a soon-to-be-dead-sun is that sunlight=life. Remove the energy source and everything stops.

[soserious]

the main problem with moving the earth away from a soon-to-be-dead-sun is that sunlight=life. Remove the energy source and everything stops.


yes i know.
but not entirely..
see last page about the deep sea floor,.
this was also explored in a programme, which is why life might work in planets far from the sun in cold dark space.

[Bobo]

It's the way life works: the end is considered bad and life should be preserved no matter what. When expanding the horizon one can think about a whole planet with it's whole evolutionary history as one lifeform... and just as here in earth, all life must die some day to give room for new life. Death of one creature is nothing, but death of a whole planet is another matter... but it's inevidable: everything has a beginning and an end. Earth will burn and die too when it's time comes, and it's just the way our universe works. As one life disappears, another is born somewhere... The quest for eternal life may not even be possible.

[soserious]

maybe so, but i still think we should try like hell to survive, even if its just some plant life out there and fish or something.

but there again, whats to say that our solar system might have been born roughly the same time as he others? and that life mostly started at the same time, and that the universe will eventually lose ALL LIFE everywhere.

fuck that sux so bad it almost makes me not even care about anything anymore.

i hate thse thoughts that the universe may well just spread further, get cold and die out.

what the f##king hell is that?


that thought and possibility makes everything seem futile.
why breathe?
lt me stop for a while.
(one of the thngs im SUPPOSED to be looking after died this morning aswell. im so angry at the stupid bastard for being so stupid and im angry with myself for not preventing the death.)

god youre so stupid ss.
:evil:

[Bobo]

but there again, whats to say that our solar system might have been born roughly the same time as he others? and that life mostly started at the same time, and that the universe will eventually lose ALL LIFE everywhere.
Well, not really. There are new stars forming as we speak, and old stars dying... and when an old star dies, a new star may be born on the gas cloud the dead star left behind... the never ending cycle of life.

[soserious]

Well, not really. There are new stars forming as we speak, and old stars dying... and when an old star dies, a new star may be born on the gas cloud the dead star left behind... the never ending cycle of life.

really?
hmm, thats interesting.

[Bobo]

Yep, true my friend. Our universe is so old that there may have been earth-like worlds before us, and their sun died before there wasn't even the first forms of bacteria on earth. And after us, there will be others... Loads of new stars being born in our own galaxy as we speak.

[wern]

That's what makes it so much more interesting and exciting! I wish I were born hundreds of years back when there still were areas on earth nobody had gone to. I'd love to explore the unknown! Now I'm born in this freakin' transition period when the earth has been explored but space exploration isn't possible, we haven't even been to Mars yet! :x

Idealy I agree with you. The thrill of the unexplored and unknown could be transcending. In reality though, you go to the amazon and get kidnapped or capture by one of the wild tribes there and you're gone. Still something nice to think about.

[soserious]

sure..if youre unprepared.
if youre cunning, armed and with guide you are better off.
whos to say the hunted doesnt become the hunter...
*have machete will travel*

ss

[wern]

pfft no way SS. You don't get kidnapped out in the open by one guy. You get shot in the back with a dart in the middle of the jungle by an armie of guerillas. The sort of guys that do that sort of thing have grown up in that environment. You would have to have special ops training not to get yourself into that sort of situation. I know people who assassinated by hand in the Israeli army. And they wouldn't go into the Amazon. Once you have that sort of training you know to stay away from certain areas. But the thing is that you can have lots of fun without having to be in such unreasonable danger.

[soserious]

pffft huh??
first off im talking special ops type training, decent weaponry- who cares about some fucking darts if youre unit is packing 7.62mm assault rifles and youre 2 armoured carriers are packing .50cal cannons?
and im not so stupid to think one guy would do it, besides do you know SS style? would you go up to a grenade and pull the pin and start shooting darts into it? you know what happens? it blows up and kills you.
besides its part luck too, you make out like theyre the baddest people on the planet, thats ridiculous. the baddest people are everywhere.
besides please dont try to threaten ss , thats just asking for ugliness.
ugly UGLY DANGEROUS UGLINESS.

ss

[wern]

*backs away* :)

Going into dangerous territory as a military unit is different. I thouhgt we were talking one guy travelling as a toursit by himself. Totally different ballpark if its a military unit. Guerillas have military training but its very amature, almost militia-like. No chance against a military unit packing heat. :mrgreen

[soserious]

im sorry man, but i get EXTREMLEY stressed the micro second i feel like someone is threatening me directly or indirectly. ive had to deal with threats and percieved threats all my life and i absolutley hate it, i am not a submitting kind of guy, even when im seriously outnumbered and getting beat i just cant submit.
unless maybe if i was really tired and didnt care anymore, i had a dream like that i think someone killed me and i was not even trying to fight it, i was just fine to drift away into unconciousness from my wounds and quietly pass away.
woke up with a weird feeling :x last time i died in a dream i totally believed it, in a huge nuclear exposion, i was roasted. i woke up- saw the sky out my window blue and sunny and #(although i dont believe in religion ) i thought i was in heaven or some afterlife, i truly believed id died and somhow there wasnt just nothingness-it took me a few moments to realise i was indeed still alive.



yes, im not talking soft bellied unprepared "tourists" im talking people with smarts, weaponry and survival and assault training and explosives.
why explosives? i just like the idea that if im gonna die then im gonna take out every fucker within a 30 foot radius of me too.
id like that kind of training, but either way id use a 20 litre jerry can as a big molotov cocktail just for fun.

everytime i feel threatened i gotta make myself more dangerous than the threat, thats exhausting after so many years and the mere thought of threats exhausts and angers me deeply.

ss

[wern]

grenaides are good, but sniper guns are better. Lot less messy, while a lot more accurate.

[Ed]

maybe so, but i still think we should try like hell to survive, even if its just some plant life out there and fish or something.


Soserious: there's a theory about what you are feeling called the selfish gene. It goes that the primordial desire and fight for survival is really being controlled by the genetic material of every living organism. Their goal is replication; we are merely the vessels.

That's a bit humbling and I don't entirely believe it because life is not just the way science looks at it.

[Bobo]

It would be a difficult situation if we ever found a planet with forests and animals like earth. We shouldn't just land there and start taking pictures, because a simple virus that we might take there with us could end up killing everything there, just as any simple virus there could end up killing us. Different kind of bacteria makes even tourists sick when traveling on earth, and an extra terrestrial bacteria could be fatal.

[soserious]

Soserious: there's a theory about what you are feeling called the selfish gene. It goes that the primordial desire and fight for survival is really being controlled by the genetic material of every living organism. Their goal is replication; we are merely the vessels.

That's a bit humbling and I don't entirely believe it because life is not just the way science looks at it.


are you saying im selfish? :?

what is a world without life?

ss

[Ed]

No, no... you are not selfish but every bit of genetic material in your body, as well as in every living thing, is selfish. They have their prime directive, programmed into them: replicate at all costs.... survivial. For them success = more copies of themselves than other bits of genetics that they are essentially competing with.

As I said, I don't agree completely with the overly scientific outlook but there is a certain logic about it.