What are you views on communism

[smooth]

Do you have any views on communism/marxism/socialism?

[wern]

Flawed theory

[Godma]

"Communism doesn't work because people like to own stuff."

Frank Zappa

[smooth]

Of course it's flawd its a human ideology, nothing's perfect.

[MagnumXL]

yeah i think communism sucks and stuff.

[wern]

Ok then I'll rephrase-

it doesn't work because it contains flaws that are too large - ie giving too much control to a small group. Read "Animal Farm" - the best ublished criticism of communism. the book actually contributed to the fall of the USSR.

[Spike]

I find that a bit hard to believe - the book was published in 1945.

[wern]

As I understand it literature such as poetry and novels has been used more often than not as a medium to communitcate messages to the people under dictatorships. An example is the world famous poet Miroslav Holub.

Unfortunately (and curiosly) I can't find the reference to back up what I said about Orwell's contribution to the downfall of the USSR. Maybe I am wrong. I know there was a plethora of reasons for it, but one major reason was world opinion, and people like Orwell (author of animal farm) brought the message to the west.

[ArTee63]

I think it may have some merit on paper. The problem is trying to put it into practice.

[Ed]

It's as flawed as pure capitalism. Rejecting one or the other outright is the real problem.

[Shane_Bos]

I hate communists when they start to preech to me, does my head in, thats why i refuse to ever talk about it. Its the same with religion, i just end up annoying people by questioning there (in my opinion, crap) beleifs/opinions. But hey, i could be wrong.

Thats what i hate. When people refuse to listen to reason and accept that they could be wrong and someone else could be right. I mean, i dont believe in God but i accept that i could be wrong.

[wern]

Yeh shane, thats what I thought this thread would be like, some lefty trying to turn everyone.


Capitalism is definately flawed, as is socialism and communism. The thing is that with Governments like that of the US, there is a movement to socialism even though the government is highly capitalist - things like free trade and the stock exchnage promote people to increase their wealth (capitalism) but you see a lot of resources being spread equally throughout the community by the government - a certain level education, medical, defense, policing, community centres etc.
In the past (ie late 19th and early 20th century) the Governments of the US were much more pure in their capitalism. There was a huge divide between rich and poor. The poor didn't have a fighting chance - they didn't have proper medical facilities or education and they weren't treated equally by the law (this includes abuse by the police and racism).

Now, while there is still large devide between the rich and poor (capitalism) the definition of a poor person has changed vastly - a poor person today (excluding the homeless) lives as well as a middle class person back in those old days.

At the same time there is a high level of transparency in the Government, much higher than in most other governments in the world (although the skeptics think the Government isn't transparent enough).

Communism doesn't work when put into practise. There is only one system in the world that has been document to implement the socialist ideoly successfully - these are called Moshavs and they are "towns"/communities in Israel. So Socialism can work on a small populace. Once there's too much power given to a small group, a dictatorship is imminent.

[Ed]

Maybe in some countries but in the US, for example most of the money is controlled by 2% of the pop while the rate of poverty is equivalent to the Third World. I wouldn't accept that government is more transparent either, politicians just get caught more often.

[wern]

No way. There is poverty in certain parts of US but it is very rare. It isn't comparable to third world poverty where over 60% of populations are in poverty. That's a VERY different type of poverty. That's the sort of poverty in which life doesn't mean shit. People take lives as if they are killing bugs.


Anyways. Those are my two cents on the topic.

[Steve Madden]

socialism=great, communism=not so great
mix socialism and capitalism for a more effective government

[wern]

In this age extremes don't seem to work. Moderation is the key - mixing some capitalism with some socialism seems like the thing to do.

[JB22]

ive brought this topic up before, and as i can see it....the biggest problem is that the small percentage of the population is controlling the money....therefore, they WILL become power hungry and begin keeping all the money for themselves...hence the evil dictator!

[wern]

Exactly. You see one of the mistakes made in the theory is that it was too "perfect". It was missing some real world variables. Back then there was no such thing as behavioural economics. It is actually a relatively new form of economics that seeks to model better the movement of economies based on peoples' psyches (and demographics).

Communism had an abundance of mathematical and logical reason behind it but not enough human behaviour analysis. Greed is a core human instinct as it is a byproduct of our survival mechanisms. Poor Marx. He almost had it.

[Ed]

No way. There is poverty in certain parts of US but it is very rare. It isn't comparable to third world poverty where over 60% of populations are in poverty.

That's a fare point about the degree of poverty. However, I recently saw some stats that said about 50% of US children live at or under the US poverty line. That is, as you say, probably different than the abject poverty of many 3 world countries. But, you could also argue that it costs more to live in the US. The same article went on to say that the US middle class is disappearing being replaced by a large group of people just at or under the official poverty line and 2-3 % of folks who controle 80% of the money.

[wern]

where did you read that. I am interested in the US economy for professional reasons.

[Spike]

You'd better start reading about the petroeuro then, as in "petroeuro Vs petrodollar".

[Ed]

Sorry, Wernstrum, its been ages that I read that, and the source has come and gone. But the info made an impact on me.

I just read about the petroeuro. Fascinating.

[smooth]

I think Huey Newton had it.